erowind wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:18 am
Who's the world? Here's a map of countries that recognize Palestine. Maybe people who are daft enough to believe every narrative and framing of events they see on the news will equate Palestinian fighters with ISIS but
those people weren't going to be helpful anyways. Moreover, it's not a "bit more complex." There is no nuance that can construe Palestinians as the aggressors here. They have been getting hit with a long genocide for nearly a century that has only gotten worse as time has gone on.
I don't know about you but launching 3000 rockets into Israel sounds pretty damn aggressive. Also, I bolded that part of your post for a very important reason. These people you consider to be "daft" are the ones who might decide election outcomes within this and other countries, something the left really doesn't seem to be considering at the moment. People who were once sympathetic to the Palestinians are now swinging in the other direction due to any sympathy towards Hamas. This lack of foresight is going to end up backfiring should some very hard-right state actors become elected by taking advantage of rhetoric like this.
Yes, killing civilians is bad. It's wrong, I won't defend it. But seriously question how you'd be acting if people killed your family, took your home, then forced you into a giant overpopulated concentration camp. Then they did that to millions of other people like you and your entire culture is now living this ongoing traumatic experience. It makes complete sense that they're acting this way. Moreover they can't be expected to follow the laws of war when their enemies don't either and when they aren't even recognized as a country to begin with.
So kidnapping foreign civilians, assaulting women, beheading captives including children, that's all on the table now?
Really? You know, I figured a big issue with Israel, is that their perceived historical victimhood is partly what lead them down the road to becoming oppressors themselves, so forgive me for not seeing the irony in this. Something tells me, that committing acts of atrocity is not going to make the situation any better, and nothing excuses committing these actions based on past or present grievances.
Neither anyone nor I could truly know how they would respond in the place of the Palestinians, but I'd at least hope Islamic fundamentalist extremism wasn't the answer.
Hamas can't lead a peaceful government either, their impossible hypothetical victory is no solution. But painting Hamas and Palestinians at large as aggressors or perpetrators in any way does absolutely nothing to solve the situation and only justifies ongoing genocide as it rolls into an "Israel has a right to defend itself" narrative. Israel isn't defending itself, it's gaslighting people that it's in the process of killing. Hamas on their own is going to kill a few thousand people at most when this is all said and done, they aren't a real substantive threat in a full on war and that should be obvious to everyone. Israel on the other hand is toying with killing millions and wiping out an entire culture.
Who says they can't? Who says they must waste what humanitarian aid they did receive on weapons of war rather than the lives of their own people? I'm not painting civilians as the aggressors, but the governing body of Hamas itself. A few thousand people dead is no better either, as lives should not be reduced to mere arithmetic.
As for wiping out an entire culture, the
Hamas Charter basically lays out exactly that. You can criticize Hamas without equating them to all of Palestine, in the same sense one could criticize Israel without launching in a full-on antisemitic tirade. Why people can't view these things with more nuance is really lost on me.
There was and is no other option. Israel has never let Palestine have another option. Israel has broken every major treaty it has ever signed with Palestine. Every option Israel presents is either "we conquer and genocide you now quickly" or "we conquer and genocide you slowly over decades."
This is factually untrue and almost hyperbolic as a whole. The Oslo Peace Accords were an attempt, as was the Camp David Summit and again in 2008 with former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert. The real truth is these talks were tanked because of extremist on either side and no one being satisfied based on past historical claims.
One could say that yes it might not have been enough, and Israel should have tried harder for peaceful coexistence, but at least accepting a prior peace offering would have possibly abated any further/future conflict and allowed for that possibility in time. Well never truly know that now I suppose.
