Ukraine War Watch Thread

[ibm9000]

Show this to everyone who thinks that Ukraine should stop fighting for its people.

Up the Taliban! They kept fighting and they send the Americans packing.
Something like that?

[raklian]

Show this to everyone who thinks that Ukraine should stop fighting for its people.

Up the Taliban! They kept fighting and they send the Americans packing.
Something like that?

You need to stop with your ceaseless application of whataboutisms. You're not scoring any points when you do it, so it's kind of pointless as they absolutely have nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine, you know?

[ibm9000]

absolutely have nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine...

They were living there, they were invaded.
Really?, nothing to do? I call it a historical fact, but... hey! (and I din't know I was here for the points).

I mention some time ago that the B-52 is not a dive-bomber and I will point that out even if you have the perfect strategy for a successful dinner.

[Cyber_Rebel]

To not flood the feed with Ukraine war talk; it appears the missile crisis was likely caused by an off target Ukrainian missile:

NATO chief says Poland blast likely caused by Ukrainian missile — but not Ukraine’s fault

This is exactly why Article 5 should never be called in haste or haphazardly, as I stressed in the feed and members like Erowind have been stressing extreme caution from the very beginning. Mistakes happen, and you can't just roll the dice on perceptions without facts first. I think this incident also shows that NATO is not wanting a hot war nor looking for an excuse to, even if some disagree that they aren't doing enough for peace.

At the very least, I'm glad that a lot of people calling for WW3 yesterday aren't in charge right now, because they would've cost millions of lives over 2 lost by an accident.

[raklian]

At the very least, I'm glad that a lot of people calling for WW3 yesterday aren't in charge right now, because they would've cost millions of lives over 2 lost by an accident.

What's even frightening is that any one of them can become the President of the United States. President Trump set the precedent for pulling off an improbable feat by someone with that kind of mentality, although we were lucky he wasn't the kind of man who was so willing to dive into war with Russia which happens to be country he also had business dealings with. If it wasn't for that, well...

[wjfox]

[wjfox]

[wjfox]

Vile monsters.

-----

Alleged Russian ‘torture room’ uncovered in liberated Kherson

Wed 16 Nov 2022 14.00 GMT

Ukrainian investigators have uncovered a claimed “torture room“ in Kherson city where dozens of men were allegedly detained, electrocuted, beaten and some of them killed.

Police said Russian soldiers took over the juvenile detention centre in around mid-March and turned it into a prison for men who refused to collaborate with them or who were accused of partisan activity.

Three neighbours and two local shopkeepers said they started hearing screams about six weeks after they saw Russian soldiers take over the building. The witnesses said they started seeing people being taken in with bags on their heads, and some bodies being removed. 

Mykola Ivanovych, whose balcony overlooks the back yard of the detention centre, said he saw two bodies thrown into the garages behind the centre. The Guardian was with press and prosecutors when they first entered the site, and the bodies had been removed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ed-kherson

[ibm9000]

GENEVA, Nov 15 (Reuters) - The U.N. human rights office (OHCHR) said on Tuesday that both Russia and Ukraine have tortured prisoners of war...
Bogner reported "credible allegations" of summary executions of Russian prisoners, noting that no progress has yet been seen in Ukrainian authorities' investigations into these cases.

Yes, we know.

[raklian]

GENEVA, Nov 15 (Reuters) - The U.N. human rights office (OHCHR) said on Tuesday that both Russia and Ukraine have tortured prisoners of war...
Bogner reported "credible allegations" of summary executions of Russian prisoners, noting that no progress has yet been seen in Ukrainian authorities' investigations into these cases.

Yes, we know.

I wouldn't say Ukraine used the same methods of torture, so this is kind of a false equivalency. The Ukrainians are being accused of doing summary executions. A summary execution is "an execution in which a person is accused of a crime and immediately killed without the benefit of a full and fair trial." Would you consider a quick death by execution a method of torture? It is a bit of a stretch to call it that, but it is not to say those executed Russians were afforded the rights under international law considering POWs. Did you even bother to read the rest of the Reuters article?

Here's other part of the article:

Asked to compare the scale of the abuses by both sides, Bogner said the mistreatment of Ukrainian prisoners by Russians was "fairly systematic" whereas she said it was "not systematic" for Ukraine to mistreat Russian soldiers.

[caltrek]

Pentagon Says Ukraine Defense Contact Group Remains United and Determined
by Jim Garamone
November 17, 2022

Introduction:

(DoD News Via Eurasia Review) The unity of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group is solid and the group is making great strides in getting the Ukraine military the capabilities it needs to defend the country, Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III said at the Pentagon on Wednesday.

Austin and Army Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, met virtually from the Pentagon with representatives from more than 50 countries and organizations. It was the seventh meeting of the group. “It’s been another highly successful session,” Austin said during a news conference after the meeting. “Now, we were meeting today as Russia continues to target Ukraine civilians and bombard its energy grid. But Russia’s deliberate cruelty only deepens our resolve and will continue to support Ukraine’s bedrock right to defend itself and defend the rules based international order.”

Austin addressed the deadly explosion in Poland near its border with Ukraine. He spoke with his Polish counterpart underscoring America’s ironclad commitment to defend Poland. “We have full confidence in the Polish government’s investigation of this explosion,” he said. “They’ve been conducting that investigation in a professional and deliberate manner, and we won’t get ahead of their work.”

Austin said he will stay in touch with Polish officials and NATO allies and partners. “We’re still gathering information, but we have seen nothing that contradicts [Polish] President [Andrzej] Dudas preliminary assessment that this explosion was most likely the result of a Ukrainian air defense missile that unfortunately landed in Poland,” he said. “And whatever the final conclusions may be, the world knows that Russia bears ultimate responsibility for this incident.”

Everyone in the contact group agrees that Ukraine “has a bedrock right to defend itself, and we will continue to stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine,” Austin said.

Read more here: https://www.eurasiareview.com/17112022 ... termined/

*Waits for balancing response*

[Xyls]

More evidence of the genocide against Ukrainians.

[ibm9000]

I wouldn't say...

"I wouldn't say Ukraine used the same methods of torture, so this is kind of a false equivalency."
You wouldn't say? Have you been comparing the methods of torture used by Ukraine?, one by one? Ukraine is torturing prisoners: did you get that clear
enough?

"The Ukrainians are being accused of doing summary executions."
Yes, of torturing prisoners and executing prisoners.
As you say, if you read the article, my second paragraph is not the second paragraph, it comes later on. I don't know in what weird fantasy world you are trying to mix them. Not in the article, not in my comment; two different paragraphs is not clear enough for you?

Systematic? What whataboutism is this? Do we condone the non-systematic torture of prisoners?, does this Forum condones the torture of prisoners if it's only done on weekends after 18:00? or only if done by Ukrainians?, only against Russians?, because it looks like looking for an excuse.

Ukraine is torturing prisoners and Ukraine is executing prisoners. Are these facts clear enough?

Yes, Russia is torturing prisoners, more prisoners if you like, that does not change the fact.
Russia is, in all probability, executing prisoners too; it is a war, anybody was naif enough to expect anything different in this one? Human History: War: Rape, looting, torture, executions of prisoners and civilians, that's how it is done; every army, every war, always.

[wjfox]

I wouldn't say...

"I wouldn't say Ukraine used the same methods of torture, so this is kind of a false equivalency."
You wouldn't say? Have you been comparing the methods of torture used by Ukraine?, one by one? Ukraine is torturing prisoners: did you get that clear
enough?

"The Ukrainians are being accused of doing summary executions."
Yes, of torturing prisoners and executing prisoners.
As you say, if you read the article, my second paragraph is not the second paragraph, it comes later on. I don't know in what weird fantasy world you are trying to mix them. Not in the article, not in my comment; two different paragraphs is not clear enough for you?

Systematic? What whataboutism is this? Do we condone the non-systematic torture of prisoners?, does this Forum condones the torture of prisoners if it's only done on weekends after 18:00? or only if done by Ukrainians?, only against Russians?, because it looks like looking for an excuse.

Ukraine is torturing prisoners and Ukraine is executing prisoners. Are these facts clear enough?

Yes, Russia is torturing prisoners, more prisoners if you like, that does not change the fact.
Russia is, in all probability, executing prisoners too; it is a war, anybody was naif enough to expect anything different in this one? Human History: War: Rape, looting, torture, executions of prisoners and civilians, that's how it is done; every army, every war, always.

Do you actually contribute anything to this forum, besides forgiving literally everything done by Russia?

This seems to be the only thread you post in.

Also, please use the quote button properly. It's hard to tell who you're replying to sometimes.

[ibm9000]

wjfox

Is not raklian forgiving Ukraine?

Ukraine (too) is torturing prisoners and all you read is that I am forgiving Russia?
Interesting indeed, what conclusions you seem able to reach reach. (Would you care to explain how you do that).

[raklian]

wjfox

Is not raklian forgiving Ukraine?

Ukraine (too) is torturing prisoners and all you read is that I am forgiving Russia?
Interesting indeed, what conclusions you seem able to reach reach. (Would you care to explain how you do that).

Where did it say that shows I'm forgiving Ukraine? As a matter of fact, I did say Ukraine deprived those Russian soldiers their POW rights afforded to them under international law. I hope you didn't miss that.

The essence of my response to you was just to point out summary (or extrajudicial) executions aren't torture. They're still illegal, though.

[R8Z]

wjfox

Is not raklian forgiving Ukraine?

Ukraine (too) is torturing prisoners and all you read is that I am forgiving Russia?
Interesting indeed, what conclusions you seem able to reach reach. (Would you care to explain how you do that).

To quote correctly you have to press on the quote button besides the heart on top of the post you want to quore; after that you should not delete the user and post information from the content. The actual quoted text can be summarized to what you intent to talk about, if you wish.

[ibm9000]

wjfox

Is not raklian forgiving Ukraine?
Ukraine (too) is torturing prisoners and all you read is that I am forgiving Russia?
Interesting indeed, what conclusions you seem able to reach reach. (Would you care to explain how you do that).

To quote correctly you have to press on the quote button besides the heart on top of the post you want to quore; after that you should not delete the user and post information from the content. The actual quoted text can be summarized to what you intent to talk about, if you wish.

I don't want to quote correctly.
For some reason, I think that whoever is posting or reading this has been reading the last few posts, so he knows what's going on and what we are talking about.

[ibm9000]

Where did it say that shows I'm forgiving Ukraine?

Could you explain that to wjfox?, please.

[Xyls]

Ukraine war: Were Russian soldiers shot after surrendering?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63676446

This has been an interesting incident. I don't usually watch videos of executions so glad the BBC put some stills in here. This figure that carried out the executions looks like a civilian rather than a soldier who executed those who were surrendering. Either way, Ukraine cannot let this go unpunished as it could harm their military strategy of getting Russian soldiers to surrender. The Ukrainians should investigate this with utmost urgency and hold those who did this to account.

It also provides a way for Ukraine to again differentiate itself from Russia in upholding international norms. It may be impossible to prevent a one-off war crime incident, but it is definitely possible to stop them from becoming systematic like the Russians have allowed to occur with impunity with their forces since the start of the war.