Ukraine War Watch Thread

[Certain Russian user]

making "enemy list"

Not "enemy list", rather a tall and shining monument to... well, let's politely call it incompetence and overconfidence. I thought it was obvious from the piece you yourself quoted.

shitty pandemic this year... the resulting refugee crisis from it...

As bachelor Caltrek once said (replying to my mentioning of killed Russian children):

you sure do whine a lot.

Still, a tiny step in right direction. From gloating of first days "buahaha, their invasion completely failed, they're already running out of ammo and food, their ruble became rubble... and very soon..." to uneasy grumbling "but what if not... and what the hell is going on, we thought those sanctions were meant to punish ruskies, not us..."

Stay strong! As saying goes "unfortunately today is worse than yesterday, but fortunately is still better than tomorrow". I suspect your today's fears and concerns are trifles compared to your tomorrow's reality. But refugee crisis will unlikely to affect you. The Atlantic Ocean is wide enough and you will not have to meet those Ukrainians in person. Although, perhaps, it would have been an interesting and sobering experience...

Hi Russia , with love from America

Oh please, stop it! I always prefer rude and honest curses over slimy and insincere "friendliness". And we are by no means friends.

[wjfox]

The bottom line is, you shouldn't be in Ukraine. You broke international law, you invaded a sovereign nation. Thousands of civilians have died as a result of Russia's actions, millions more have been displaced, and war crimes have been reported. The psychological damage, particularly for children, will be immense and have long-lasting consequences.

Large portions of Ukraine have been destroyed, resulting in $100 billion in damage. This war is now contributing to a global food crisis, causing untold suffering to millions around the world. If you don't wish to follow international law then you must accept that Russia is now a rogue state, you are the aggressors here. This follows a pattern that has been obvious for many years now. Russia just can't accept that it's no longer a superpower.

The only reason I haven't banned you yet is because I'm morbidly curious to see the perspective from a brainwashed little Putin sycophant, and it's interesting to see just how effective your evil, megalomaniacal, psychopathic leader's propaganda has really been.

You contribute nothing to this forum, except this constant vile gloating and denial. You haven't shown even the slightest empathy or consideration for the victims in this war. To you, it's all about poor little Russia and this constant, imaginary "threat" and victimhood. The truth is, the rest of us just want to live in peace and we have precisely ZERO interest in threatening Russia. Your country will now become increasingly irrelevant as the world shifts to clean energy and you are further isolated from the world. But it seems that is what you want. So be it.

[Certain Russian user]

The only reason I haven't banned you yet is because I'm morbidly curious to see the perspective from a brainwashed little Putin sycophant, and it's interesting to see just how effective your evil, megalomaniacal, psychopathic leader's propaganda has really been.

Hmm... It seems I hit a nerve. But I already told you, ban at any time, I no longer care. It seems our feelings are mutual: I, too, merely interested in observing the brainfucked "woke" public and their reaction to current events. Yes, true, there are users I respect, but there are few (some are long gone), and you're not one of them.

You contribute nothing to this forum.

I think my contribution was enough. Look at this forum stats: about 17.7 thousand posts, about 12.3 thousand of them are "News and Current Events", another 2.6 thousand are "Offtopic". This is essentially a news forum, futurism is just an addition. This, of course, is not your fault.

That's all I wanted to say. Enjoy your "green transition", discuss the nuances of relationships between sixty genders, wait for miraculous technologies that will soon fulfill your bizarre escapist fantasies and will make you the lone hedonist demigod... And for God's' sake, do not forget to blaze with rage at "bigots and conspiracy theorists" outside your circle.

And I'll better watch at this from a safe distance.

[wjfox]

brainfucked "woke" public and their reaction to current events.

What does that even mean? How should I react to your country's illegal invasion? Genuine question.

Enjoy your "green transition"

Yep, I will. Thanks. 100% clean energy means better air quality, reduced greenhouse gas emissions, thousands of new jobs, reduced market volatility and an end to our reliance on hostile foreign regimes for a dwindling, finite resource that causes myriad other economic/social/political problems in addition to environmental ones. We won't be blackmailed by Russia anymore.

discuss the nuances of relationships between sixty genders

Showing your homophobia and transphobia again, I see. Not sure how this relates to the invasion of Ukraine. And I don't know why you'd feel threatened by such people.

And I'll better watch at this from a safe distance.

You always say that. And then always return.

[caltrek]

...

As bachelor Caltrek once said (replying to my mentioning of killed Russian children):

you sure do whine a lot.

Still, a tiny step in right direction. From gloating of first days "buahaha, their invasion completely failed, they're already running out of ammo and food, their ruble became rubble... and very soon..." to uneasy grumbling "but what if not... and what the hell is going on, we thought those sanctions were meant to punish ruskies, not us..."

Stay strong! As saying goes "unfortunately today is worse than yesterday, but fortunately is still better than tomorrow". I suspect your today's fears and concerns are trifles compared to your tomorrow's reality. But refugee crisis will unlikely to affect you. The Atlantic Ocean is wide enough and you will not have to meet those Ukrainians in person. Although, perhaps, it would have been an interesting and sobering experience...
...

This sounds like it came straight out of Adolf Hitler's playbook. He also felt that turning the Jews into refugees would be a good propaganda ploy, very close to creating an "interesting and sobering" experience. It is bad enough that Putin's Russia must rush to victimize innocents, yet you insist on blaming the victims on top of all that. Your love affair with reactionary, even fascist, elements grows more apparent by the day.

[joe00uk]

I, for one, am actually interested in the perspective of a Russian living in Russia because all we're allowed to see from our own official media is constant Ukraine cheerleading - despite our countries (UK, USA, etc) having zero obligation to support Ukraine. We really don't have to involve ourselves in every single foreign conflict. The fact that we're trying to do so now is wreaking far more havoc on ourselves than on Russia, which was the obvious result from the beginning. So much for Russia becoming irrelevant...

It's also interesting (in a morbid way) to see how all this hatred against Russia could be applied just as liberally to our own regimes which within all our lifetimes broke international law by invading sovereign nations and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians. That's sadly just what empires and other great powers do. Is it nice? No. Is whipping up some huge moral panic about it going to stop it? Also no. It's up there among the world's most pointless activities.

[Certain Russian user]

And I'll better watch at this from a safe distance.

You always say that. And then always return.

Not so fast! I didn't yet say farewell, I'll just try to refrain from unnecessary (to me) debates, but keep posting the unpleasant (to you), but bare and easily verifiable facts. Other words, I'm going to stay the...

Thick Rusty Nail of Reality mercilessly hammered into Sparkling Crystal Castle of your wishful thinking.

[weatheriscool]

Time for Russia to get out of Ukraine for its own good or don't be shocked if your country fails.

[Vakanai]

I, for one, am actually interested in the perspective of a Russian living in Russia because all we're allowed to see from our own official media is constant Ukraine cheerleading - despite our countries (UK, USA, etc) having zero obligation to support Ukraine. We really don't have to involve ourselves in every single foreign conflict. The fact that we're trying to do so now is wreaking far more havoc on ourselves than on Russia, which was the obvious result from the beginning. So much for Russia becoming irrelevant...

It's also interesting (in a morbid way) to see how all this hatred against Russia could be applied just as liberally to our own regimes which within all our lifetimes broke international law by invading sovereign nations and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians. That's sadly just what empires and other great powers do. Is it nice? No. Is whipping up some huge moral panic about it going to stop it? Also no. It's up there among the world's most pointless activities.

Difference is, when US, UK, etc have done such things in recent history, there was (arguable) provocation (9/11), people debated the decision, disagreed with it, and the media often questioned it etc. Here there was no inciting incident to attempt to justify Putin's action, no means of debating that decision in Russia, and Russian media is a propaganda machine only. For most of 20 years I was against the war in Iraq, and didn't really care who knew it. In Russia it's against the law to even say this is a war or invasion.

[joe00uk]

Difference is, when US, UK, etc have done such things in recent history, there was (arguable) provocation (9/11), people debated the decision, disagreed with it, and the media often questioned it etc. Here there was no inciting incident to attempt to justify Putin's action, no means of debating that decision in Russia, and Russian media is a propaganda machine only. For most of 20 years I was against the war in Iraq, and didn't really care who knew it. In Russia it's against the law to even say this is a war or invasion.

Russia also has arguable provocations for its actions which it has referred to extensively (i.e. the actions of Ukraine since the 2014 coup). The difference there, perhaps, is that 9/11 may be an even weaker excuse. It's honestly one of the laziest narratives ever crafted, especially given that neither Iraq nor Afghanistan had anything to do with the attack and that what evidence there is points to countries like Saudi Arabia being involved. Yes, it's true that dissent is stifled in Russia and there is heavy propaganda, but the same is true here. You will never see mainstream corporate media allow anything other than sycophantic cheerleading for Ukraine and the Kiev regime. Any other viewpoints, no matter how reasonable and balanced, are subject to censorship in the mainstream. Here, as in Russia, alternative viewpoints only really thrive on smaller outlets of independent media. It was the same with the Iraq War. Mainstream media in the West was largely uncritical and popular criticism of the war that existed outside of approved media outlets was completely ignored. The differences really aren't so great, and it's silly to think the West has any sort of moral high ground in this situation.

[Vakanai]

Difference is, when US, UK, etc have done such things in recent history, there was (arguable) provocation (9/11), people debated the decision, disagreed with it, and the media often questioned it etc. Here there was no inciting incident to attempt to justify Putin's action, no means of debating that decision in Russia, and Russian media is a propaganda machine only. For most of 20 years I was against the war in Iraq, and didn't really care who knew it. In Russia it's against the law to even say this is a war or invasion.

Russia also has arguable provocations for its actions which it has referred to extensively (i.e. the actions of Ukraine since the 2014 coup). The difference there, perhaps, is that 9/11 may be an even weaker excuse. It's honestly one of the laziest narratives ever crafted, especially given that neither Iraq nor Afghanistan had anything to do with the attack and that what evidence there is points to countries like Saudi Arabia being involved. Yes, it's true that dissent is stifled in Russia and there is heavy propaganda, but the same is true here. You will never see mainstream corporate media allow anything other than sycophantic cheerleading for Ukraine and the Kiev regime. Any other viewpoints, no matter how reasonable and balanced, are subject to censorship in the mainstream. Here, as in Russia, alternative viewpoints only really thrive on smaller outlets of independent media. It was the same with the Iraq War. Mainstream media in the West was largely uncritical and popular criticism of the war that existed outside of approved media outlets was completely ignored. The differences really aren't so great, and it's silly to think the West has any sort of moral high ground in this situation.

Actually, no. Ukraine's actions aren't an arguably stronger excuse because they're an understandable response to having some of their sovereign territory violently stolen from them. Nor is western media "cheerleading" Ukraine evidence of propaganda - Russia invaded another country, what is the "reasonable and balanced" side of that? Also I don't know what country you were watching media in, but I remember seeing plenty of critics and criticism of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan here. Sure, there was less of it in the very beginning, frankly Americans were still kind of in shock for the first two or three years after 9/11 to want to give it serious unbiased thinking, but even then criticism existed. Russia allows no criticism in it's media, and the population isn't suffering a traumatic cultural shock to the system to be thinking unclearly. Russia is pure Putin led propaganda.
America and it's allies are flawed, I won't debate that fact. We've made mistakes. We frankly did shit we shouldn't have. Some of it was shock, some of it lies (weapons of mass destruction that never existed), some of it was just on us, our fault. We've owned some of it, some we haven't. But Russia is denying any wrongdoing, trying to paint themselves as the victims and their victims as extremist militants, and will not allow it's citizens to argue against the Kremlin's worldview and are being brainwashed into believing it via state sponsored propaganda. The West is not innocent, but there's no comparison here. Russia is flat out in the wrong here, is the aggressor here, and Ukraine is suffering death and despair all because of the tyrannical Nazi-like decisions of an authoritarian and ruthless megalomaniac.

[Certain Russian user]

The territory of Azovstal was completely liberated
https://blocked/azovstal-1789846545.html

MOSCOW, May 20, RIA News. The territory of Azovstal has been completely liberated, MOD reported.

The head of the department (MOD), Sergei Shoigu, reported to Russian President Vladimir Putin on the complete liberation of Mariupol from Ukrainian militants. The underground facilities of the plant came under the control of Russian troops.

The MOD noted that since May 16, during the operation, 2 439 Azov Neonazis and Ukrainian troops blocked on the territory of the plant laid down their arms and surrendered.

The last group of 531 militants surrendered today.

The department also reported that the Azov commander was taken out of the territory in special armored car for reasons of his safety and in order to avoid the reprisal from local residents for numerous atrocities.

[raklian]

and it's silly to think the West has any sort of moral high ground in this situation.

Whataboutisms never work as an argument tool. It's no different from a child explaining to his Mom that he hit another kid because he hit him first. That's how ridiculous it sounds to us.

[raklian]

The territory of Azovstal was completely liberated
https://blocked/azovstal-1789846545.html

Nope. It was invaded. If you manage to get around the propaganda from the state news (you seem to have difficulties there), you'd know Ukrainians don't want the Russians there. So, it most certainly isn't a liberation. It is an invasion, point blank.

[Certain Russian user]

The territory of Azovstal was completely liberated
https://blocked/azovstal-1789846545.html

Nope. It was invaded. Illegally, if I might add.

Legally speaking, since May 2014 Mariupol and Azovstal plant is territory of Donetsk People's Republic occupied by Ukraine. Therefore liberated.

One way or another, a historical day.

If you manage to get around the propaganda from the state news, you'd know Ukrainians don't want the Russians there.

And if you managed to overcome the language barrier, I'd gladly showed you the social networks with residents of Mariupol and their opinions.

[raklian]

The territory of Azovstal was completely liberated
https://blocked/azovstal-1789846545.html

Nope. It was invaded. Illegally, if I might add.

Legally speaking, since May 2014 Mariupol and Azovstal plant is territory od Donetsk People's Republic occupied by Ukraine. Therefore liberated.

Nope. Ukraine never agreed for the Donbas to separate. Even we know most Ukrainians there didn't support the separatist movement. The illusion of separatists having the support of most people there was orchestrated by Moscow via covert means. Various intelligence agencies in USA and Europe have confirmed it. Therefore, illegal and not a liberation. I'll admit it's the exact same play USA used in various countries in South America and Middle East, propping up pro-USA governments and leaders after overthrowing previous ones through secret operations.

How do you think Russia will act if Ukraine does the same thing to one of its oblasts bordering Ukraine? Do you think Russia will let Ukraine conduct a "special denazification operation" there? Think the Russians would buy that? I don't think so. This whole argument of "liberating" Donbas for that reason is completely specious and without substance. It's pure disinformation with the purpose of controlling the narrative, pacifying certain people into accepting the government's cruelty on civilians on the other side. Anyone with a brain can see that a mile away, and yet nearly everyone here is seeing you are having a really hard time seeing the obvious. We're guessing you being a very strong Russia nationalist has something to do with it. At the same time, being the smart guy that you are, we thought you would realize the risk of being blinded by it. It's just not happening for some reason. It's mystifying and exasperating to us.

And if you managed to overcome the language barrier, I'd gladly showed you the social networks with residents of Mariupol and their opinions.

And yet the Russians basically turned Mariupol into an artillery wasteland after encountering stiff resistance. That doesn't sound like people there were welcoming them with open arms. So, something doesn't add up.

Calling it a liberation is no different from President George Bush declaring Iraqis were "liberated" from a cruel, sadistic despot when we knew it was ostensibly for other, less noble reasons. The Russians are merely borrowing the playbook to its advantage. That's plain for all to see.

[Certain Russian user]

And if you managed to overcome the language barrier, I'd gladly showed you the social networks with residents of Mariupol and their opinions.

And yet the Russians basically turned Mariupol into an artillery wasteland after encountering stiff resistance. That doesn't sound like people there were welcoming them with open arms. So, something doesn't add up.

Not with open arms, surely. But common people are wiser than you may think. When first army, your self-proclaimed "defenders", set up a firing point right in your apartment (from where you are at best expelled, and at worst ordered to stay), and then this firing point gets destroyed by second army - people understand who's to blame here.

Other words, towards Russia they may feel bitterness: "Was this all really necessary?". But towards their Ukrainian "defenders" they now feel only hatred and contempt. Among other things, they were refusing to bury the corpses of "their" Ukrainian soldiers, leaving them to rot in the streets and calmly stepping over them like over heaps of rubbish. Now, of course, all these corpses are removed and the city returns to "normal".

Mariupol will be included in Russia and rebuilt, no doubt about that.

[Certain Russian user]

Have just read your edited post.

At the same time, being the smart guy that you are, we thought you would realize the risk...

Well, I'll return the compliment then. Being the smart guy you can easily imagine my reaction to this:

The illusion of separatists having the support of most people there was orchestrated by Moscow via covert means. Various intelligence agencies in USA and Europe have confirmed it.

The main difference between us is that I can read sources from both sides. And this is not just about reading, there are also personal contacts and connections. This will not be empty bragging to say I understand Ukraine, with its political and cultural nuances, regional differences, and so on, much better than anyone else in this forum. For example, don't waste your and my time convincing me that "no any fascists there". I talked to them many and many times (and not even always online). I know virtually nothing about, say, Texas or California, and not going to lecture you what's "really" happening there. I hope you see the analogy...

And yes, of course, each state machine pushing its own narrative. But yours, about "peaceful young democracy attacked by mad tyrant scared by their freedom and relative well being..." is much further from reality than mine.

[joe00uk]

Actually, no. Ukraine's actions aren't an arguably stronger excuse because they're an understandable response to having some of their sovereign territory violently stolen from them.

They're understandable from Ukraine's point of view, sure, but Russia has a completely different point of view based on its own interests as a nation. If the Ukrainian and Russian regimes are hostile to each other, then obviously any measure either takes to strengthen itself is going to be 'provocative' to the other. I'm not talking about who's right and wrong. But it's also important to remember that Crimea being given to Ukraine in 1954 was rather nonsensical. Its population is mostly ethnically Russian. I don't see why it should ever have made sense for them to stay in Ukraine after 2014 when an anti-Russian government seized power. As for the Donbass, Russia didn't seize it from them - those were Ukrainian citizens of Russian ethnicity who didn't want to be ruled over by a new regime which would be hostile to them. Obviously, yes, the Ukrainian government wants that territory to stay under its rule so obviously it was going to take measures to ensure that remains the case, but this is why I'm saying there are multiple valid perspectives here. There's no "one true path to enlightenment".

Nor is western media "cheerleading" Ukraine evidence of propaganda - Russia invaded another country, what is the "reasonable and balanced" side of that?

It is the very definition of propaganda. If the media intentionally feeds us biased information (or misinformation) for the purpose of swaying our opinion towards supporting one side or another in a conflict, that is propaganda. Are you really trying to tell me the "Ghost of Kiev" wasn't propaganda? Are you really trying to tell me that the constant stream of reports here in the West about Russia losing "any day now" are an objective assessment of the facts? Come on.

Also I don't know what country you were watching media in, but I remember seeing plenty of critics and criticism of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan here. Sure, there was less of it in the very beginning, frankly Americans were still kind of in shock for the first two or three years after 9/11 to want to give it serious unbiased thinking, but even then criticism existed. Russia allows no criticism in it's media, and the population isn't suffering a traumatic cultural shock to the system to be thinking unclearly. Russia is pure Putin led propaganda.

You've answered that yourself. There was a lot less in the beginning, and practically none in the mainstream media. I'm not so sure the 9/11 trauma factor is valid there (aside from the effects of media coverage) given most people didn't experience 9/11 firsthand or know anyone who was killed or injured. In any case, popular opinion never mattered. The American and British governments pressed ahead on it just like any authoritarian regime you could care to name and only relented after many years when their failures became too obvious to ignore.

America and it's allies are flawed, I won't debate that fact. We've made mistakes. We frankly did shit we shouldn't have. Some of it was shock, some of it lies (weapons of mass destruction that never existed), some of it was just on us, our fault. We've owned some of it, some we haven't. But Russia is denying any wrongdoing, trying to paint themselves as the victims and their victims as extremist militants, and will not allow it's citizens to argue against the Kremlin's worldview and are being brainwashed into believing it via state sponsored propaganda. The West is not innocent, but there's no comparison here. Russia is flat out in the wrong here, is the aggressor here, and Ukraine is suffering death and despair all because of the tyrannical Nazi-like decisions of an authoritarian and ruthless megalomaniac.

Exactly, so we might as well admit our flaws and stop pretending that we're so much better than everyone else because they also have flaws. That's not to say we should become shrinking violets and start thinking of everyone else as better than us of course, which is also untrue. Popular opinion of the Iraq War in the West shifted, but it took years of embarrassing failures for the official media and the government to do the same. They also spent years denying all wrongdoing and painting themselves as victims and their victims as extremists, so I'm not sure why you're saying "there's no comparison" when there quite clearly is a comparison.

Also, I haven't been talking about who's in the right or the wrong - in case you haven't noticed. I'm no fan of Ukraine, but I don't actually support the invasion. The point I've been making this whole time is that getting different perspectives is good, whether or not you happen to agree with them.

[joe00uk]

Whataboutisms never work as an argument tool. It's no different from a child explaining to his Mom that he hit another kid because he hit him first. That's how ridiculous it sounds to us.

From that response, I can tell right away that you don't even know what my argument is.