caltrek wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:12 pm
ibm9000 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:56 pm
I am more interested in understanding this war and the consequences for...
To understand
this war, you have to understand war. To understand consequences, I think it is a good idea to have a look at
past consequences of war, any war.
...
I don't disagree with you. The point that you keep missing is that is why we have a history section to this forum. A place where historical events can be examined and lessons extracted from a discussion of those events. So, my argument with you is concerning the best way to go about looking "at
past consequences of war". Not whether we should look toward history to explore such questions.
Again, if we are going to discuss the Ukraine, then let us discuss the Ukraine. If we are going to discuss Iraq, then let us discuss Iraq. What I don't think we need to do is clutter up this thread with a discussion of Iraq and nothing but Iraq. We are then faced with either letting false equivalencies being stated without rebuttal or further context; or diverting our discussion away from the Ukraine within a thread dedicated to examining the present war in that country. Methodologically, that just does not make sense.
Now if you think my assessment as to false equivalencies is incorrect, then take that up in the Iraq thread...
Somehow, I think IBM9000 will not be taking me up on my offer, so let me elaborate for the rest of our reading audience. I think there has been far to much of a tendency, by some, to view the war in the Ukraine as a clash between two empires, at the exclusion of understanding it as a true rebellion of Ukrainian citizens against the prospect of Russian rule. As such, this rebellion certainly does take place within the context of international relations, which includes the "clash of civilizations" that Samuel Huntington warned us about. Huntington was actually a conservative who supported the war in Vietnam. I am unsure what his recommendation was regarding Iraq, but I would not be surprised if he also favored that invasion.
In the case of the Ukraine. I think it is better to put more emphasis on the need for a peaceful settlement, and less on the need to punish Russia for its actions. I think this last act of aggression by Russia has already cost that country enough to the point of pausing and thinking twice before engaging in further acts of aggression. Further, any settlement in the Ukraine should take into account the further legitimate security needs of both Russia and the Ukraine. It should not be a simply a pause that allows Russia to better prepare for the next stage of conquest while leaving the Ukraine unarmed and unprepared for such action. Of course, reaching such a settlement appears to be far easier said than done.
Iraq was different in that the sitting government was dominated by a tyrant. Ukraine was far more democratic in its institutions prior to the invasion by Russia than was Iraq prior to the invasion by the U.S. Bush himself indicated that he was not interested in "nation building" as a follow up to the invasion of Iraq. Still, the U.S. military was left with the task of engaging in that "nation building" effort. That it did so with mixed success for Bush was almost beside the point. Leaving the question of exactly what was it that he was interested in?
The price and availability of oil for the West was probably a very important factor. Removing Hussein as a threat in the region also played a part. There also really might have been a misguided fear of the stock piling of weapons of mass destruction. Those who indicated that such a stockpiling was not taking place turned out to be correct. Something Bush claims to have been the result of bad intelligence. Implied in that is bad judgement on his part.
So, a lot of folks do look back upon that invasion of Iraq as a mistake. In the U.S., as Weatheriscool has implied, this resulted in a shift in emphasis within the Republican party. That is from being one that was prone to interventionist measures, to one that is more isolationist in its orientation. At an extreme, this has even manifest itself as sympathy for the Russian position with regards to the Ukraine. This, despite the utter moral depravity on the part of Putin and his policy. Yet another example of "just us" winning out over justice. This time to the potential benefit of Putin and danger to the Ukraine.
Don't mourn, organize.
-Joe Hill