Ukraine War Watch Thread

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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:17 pm
The best possibly outcome is...
...that it never happened, but History disagrees. This is just another war, it all happened before, it will happen again; I am not surprised.
I would say that the notion of targeting civilians in a war has something to do with this war. (Now you can argue... deliberately... only once... yes, but... or whatever else...). All the notions about this one being different are yours. The "excuse" is all yours.

...and you keep dragging it on ...and I kindly follow.
For me, this is just another war; for you, it seems, this war is completely different and nothing in Human History has anything to do with this one and cannot be related to this one.
No, history does not disagree. The concept and implementation of total war did not occur until World War I (some would go back to the U.S. Civil War). Prior to that, warfare was very often confined to military clashing with military, with civilians merely expected to follow the orders of the winning side. There were exceptions where an aggressive army might have worked itself up into a genocidal rage. Still, they were just that, exceptions and not the general rule.

Moreover, in World War II, precedents were established for certain types of conduct being consider as war crimes. That concept also was subsequently applied to the behavior of many leaders and warriors. Meaning that it is now fair game to consider whether or not Putin and some of his cronies have engaged in war crimes. Yes, and Ukrainian leaders as well if instances warrant such a consideration.

Every war occurs at a unique point in the space time continuum. Meaning that every war occurs at a certain point of technological development and in the context of immediately preceding international agreements that may have been in place. Every war also involves a unique set conflicting leaders and in the backdrop of a unique set of historical circumstances. False equivalencies are just the symptom of a lazy mind, and should be condemned as such. Ditto tedious what-about-isms. "Just another war" is not analysis, it is fatalism.

Sure, that is how it seems to me. Again, that brings us to the point of agreeing to disagree.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
Xyls
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Xyls »

Russian internal meltdown is looming...

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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

...incendiary shells
Where ?
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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

...agreeing to disagree.
Wise words.
"Total war", from what hat did you get that concept? I did use "war".

...military clashing with military, with civilians merely expected to
You are kidding, right?

How do you think the Greek cities fought?, what do you think was happening to the citizens of a fallen city?, not to mention the slaves or the barbarians. How was Rome fighting?, the Mexica?

About the Christian way of killing (only applied to Christians killing Christians, of course), during the Middle Ages the Church tried to "impose" some rules... How well do you think it went?, do you think the Cathars were the only exception?

The 30 Years War?, the devastation it brought to Europe? Again, who cares about the rest of the planet?

Just wars, maybe History disagrees with you... after all.
weatheriscool
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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weatheriscool
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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raklian
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by raklian »

Yep, the Russians really did blow it up.

I suppose the Russians aren't expecting to keep Crimea since the dam complex maintains the reservoir from which fresh water gets channeled into the peninsula.

To know is essentially the same as not knowing. The only thing that occurs is the rearrangement of atoms in your brain.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Ukraine's military says...
Let's give it a day at least... in case it's another Patriot falling down.
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:45 pm
...
"Total war", from what hat did you get that concept?
Well, here is one example where that concept is discussed:

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ ... ar-beta
...military clashing with military, with civilians merely expected to
You are kidding, right?

How do you think the Greek cities fought?, what do you think was happening to the citizens of a fallen city?, not to mention the slaves or the barbarians. How was Rome fighting?, the Mexica?

About the Christian way of killing (only applied to Christians killing Christians, of course), during the Middle Ages the Church tried to "impose" some rules... How well do you think it went?, do you think the Cathars were the only exception?

The 30 Years War?, the devastation it brought to Europe? Again, who cares about the rest of the planet?

Just wars, maybe History disagrees with you... after all.
You left off the ending as to what civilians were "expected to do." You then pose questions which can be answered in the context of those expectations. Sure, an outcome of any particular war might have involved being subject to slavery. By modern standards slavery is repugnant. Do you want to bring back slavery as a normalized institution?

Paying of tribute was another possible outcome. Today, we do pay taxes. In part that is still a matter of paying tribute to the winning side, and in part that can be seen as providing for the mutual defense. In the real world, that might become entangled, but as conceptual categories, I would think that they are clear enough.

So, history even prior to the twentieth century did involve efforts to "impose" rules by your own admission.

There are often those that violate any given rule that is developed. In fact, the origins of any rule come from a recognition of the need to regulate bad conduct. We don't conclude that the fact that some bad conduct continues means that we should therefore not promulgate such rules. At least, only anarchists might make such arguments. Even some anarchists can understand a moral argument against certain actions conceptually discussed as war crimes.

Your approach of false equivalencies and continued what-about-isms seem designed to eliminate or distract from an analysis as to whether war crimes have even occurred. A distraction that tyrants like Putin love to see.

In the sixties and seventies the assertion was made concerning social and environmental ills that if you are not a part of the solution then you are part of the problem. Continual distractions from the question of war crimes that may have been committed in the Ukraine is part of the problem. Do you really want to continue to go there?

Please remember to relate any response that you may give to the situation in the Ukraine.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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