Israel's conflict with its neighbours

[Cyber_Rebel]

This situation is a bit more complicated than Ukraine/Russia, but Hamas's actions have done nothing but solidify world opinion against Palestine. Rather than focus upon any actual debates around the human rights situation within the region. all the world will see is another ISIS styled terrorist group with extreme religious views.

Regardless of how the Israeli state has been, literally paragliding(?) into what appeared to be a peace party, and then proceeding to not only kill civilians which had nothing to do with the long-standing tensions in the region, but put anyone through extreme degradation (stripping, rape, kidnapping) and then filming these actions while shouting the name of their religion for all the world to see is very bad optics.

That may not be a nice way to lay it out, but that's the truth. You are not going to win over anyone by taking these actions, and the only people who will suffer the most will be Palestinians due directly to the actions taken by Hamas. One could make the argument that Israel led to this situation over time, and they'd have a point, but one could also make the argument that another option could have been made which didn't result in senseless death, as the above will achieve absolutely nothing.

[firestar464]

Someone needs to fact-check his statement

[weatheriscool]

[weatheriscool]

[weatheriscool]

[erowind]

This situation is a bit more complicated than Ukraine/Russia, but Hamas's actions have done nothing but solidify world opinion against Palestine. Rather than focus upon any actual debates around the human rights situation within the region. all the world will see is another ISIS styled terrorist group with extreme religious views.

Who's the world? Here's a map of countries that recognize Palestine. Maybe people who are daft enough to believe every narrative and framing of events they see on the news will equate Palestinian fighters with ISIS but those people weren't going to be helpful anyways. Moreover, it's not a "bit more complex." There is no nuance that can construe Palestinians as the aggressors here. They have been getting hit with a long genocide for nearly a century that has only gotten worse as time has gone on.

Regardless of how the Israeli state has been, literally paragliding(?) into what appeared to be a peace party, and then proceeding to not only kill civilians which had nothing to do with the long-standing tensions in the region, but put anyone through extreme degradation (stripping, rape, kidnapping) and then filming these actions while shouting the name of their religion for all the world to see is very bad optics.

Yes, killing civilians is bad. It's wrong, I won't defend it. But seriously question how you'd be acting if people killed your family, took your home, then forced you into a giant overpopulated concentration camp. Then they did that to millions of other people like you and your entire culture is now living this ongoing traumatic experience. It makes complete sense that they're acting this way. Moreover they can't be expected to follow the laws of war when their enemies don't either and when they aren't even recognized as a country to begin with.

Hamas can't lead a peaceful government either, their impossible hypothetical victory is no solution. But painting Hamas and Palestinians at large as aggressors or perpetrators in any way does absolutely nothing to solve the situation and only justifies ongoing genocide as it rolls into an "Israel has a right to defend itself" narrative. Israel isn't defending itself, it's gaslighting people that it's in the process of killing. Hamas on their own is going to kill a few thousand people at most when this is all said and done, they aren't a real substantive threat in a full on war and that should be obvious to everyone. Israel on the other hand is toying with killing millions and wiping out an entire culture.

That may not be a nice way to lay it out, but that's the truth. You are not going to win over anyone by taking these actions, and the only people who will suffer the most will be Palestinians due directly to the actions taken by Hamas. One could make the argument that Israel led to this situation over time, and they'd have a point, but one could also make the argument that another option could have been made which didn't result in senseless death, as the above will achieve absolutely nothing.

There was and is no other option. Israel has never let Palestine have another option. Israel has broken every major treaty it has ever signed with Palestine. Every option Israel presents is either "we conquer and genocide you now quickly" or "we conquer and genocide you slowly over decades."

[erowind]

This post is not true.

https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-isra ... 9878a0cfe4

Hamas has denied both Hezbollah's and Iran's involvement in planning or otherwise assisting the attacks.

It really concerns me that there's an army of social media bots manufacturing consent for further war. It should be really obvious to people what's going on here. Someone(s) whose geopolitical interest it is to stir conflict is trying to manufacture consent for a war with Iran.

It could be the US, the US has poised Iran as and adversary for decades. It could be Russia, looking to expand the war to new fronts and take pressure of their own front. It could be China pitting other countries against each other. What I'm confident of is that we shouldn't be trusting random social media accounts for news.

[Cyber_Rebel]

Who's the world? Here's a map of countries that recognize Palestine. Maybe people who are daft enough to believe every narrative and framing of events they see on the news will equate Palestinian fighters with ISIS but those people weren't going to be helpful anyways. Moreover, it's not a "bit more complex." There is no nuance that can construe Palestinians as the aggressors here. They have been getting hit with a long genocide for nearly a century that has only gotten worse as time has gone on.

I don't know about you but launching 3000 rockets into Israel sounds pretty damn aggressive. Also, I bolded that part of your post for a very important reason. These people you consider to be "daft" are the ones who might decide election outcomes within this and other countries, something the left really doesn't seem to be considering at the moment. People who were once sympathetic to the Palestinians are now swinging in the other direction due to any sympathy towards Hamas. This lack of foresight is going to end up backfiring should some very hard-right state actors become elected by taking advantage of rhetoric like this.

Yes, killing civilians is bad. It's wrong, I won't defend it. But seriously question how you'd be acting if people killed your family, took your home, then forced you into a giant overpopulated concentration camp. Then they did that to millions of other people like you and your entire culture is now living this ongoing traumatic experience. It makes complete sense that they're acting this way. Moreover they can't be expected to follow the laws of war when their enemies don't either and when they aren't even recognized as a country to begin with.

So kidnapping foreign civilians, assaulting women, beheading captives including children, that's all on the table now?

Really? You know, I figured a big issue with Israel, is that their perceived historical victimhood is partly what lead them down the road to becoming oppressors themselves, so forgive me for not seeing the irony in this. Something tells me, that committing acts of atrocity is not going to make the situation any better, and nothing excuses committing these actions based on past or present grievances.

Neither anyone nor I could truly know how they would respond in the place of the Palestinians, but I'd at least hope Islamic fundamentalist extremism wasn't the answer.

Hamas can't lead a peaceful government either, their impossible hypothetical victory is no solution. But painting Hamas and Palestinians at large as aggressors or perpetrators in any way does absolutely nothing to solve the situation and only justifies ongoing genocide as it rolls into an "Israel has a right to defend itself" narrative. Israel isn't defending itself, it's gaslighting people that it's in the process of killing. Hamas on their own is going to kill a few thousand people at most when this is all said and done, they aren't a real substantive threat in a full on war and that should be obvious to everyone. Israel on the other hand is toying with killing millions and wiping out an entire culture.

Who says they can't? Who says they must waste what humanitarian aid they did receive on weapons of war rather than the lives of their own people? I'm not painting civilians as the aggressors, but the governing body of Hamas itself. A few thousand people dead is no better either, as lives should not be reduced to mere arithmetic.

As for wiping out an entire culture, the Hamas Charter basically lays out exactly that. You can criticize Hamas without equating them to all of Palestine, in the same sense one could criticize Israel without launching in a full-on antisemitic tirade. Why people can't view these things with more nuance is really lost on me.

There was and is no other option. Israel has never let Palestine have another option. Israel has broken every major treaty it has ever signed with Palestine. Every option Israel presents is either "we conquer and genocide you now quickly" or "we conquer and genocide you slowly over decades."

This is factually untrue and almost hyperbolic as a whole. The Oslo Peace Accords were an attempt, as was the Camp David Summit and again in 2008 with former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert. The real truth is these talks were tanked because of extremist on either side and no one being satisfied based on past historical claims.

One could say that yes it might not have been enough, and Israel should have tried harder for peaceful coexistence, but at least accepting a prior peace offering would have possibly abated any further/future conflict and allowed for that possibility in time. Well never truly know that now I suppose.

[SerethiaFalcon]

After a lot of reflection, I have decided to remove my comments. They were not helpful to the current situation, and I think too dichotomous when this conflict has always been convoluted and complex in some ways. Also, I feel like I'm not the person to be commenting on this situation at all, because, I'm too biased at my core. When I thought about my comments, I was dismayed to realize my religious indoctrination in college which I've been fighting since 2014 is still reflected in my speech patterns online, especially on issues like this. The college I attended/graduated from required students to be dispensationalists, which, for those unfamiliar with evangelical theology, means that the Jewish people in the Bible are believed to still be the chosen ones by god to this day. This was heavily pushed by the school too. So, I don't think it is my place to parrot things I heard that I don't know (at least in regards specifically to the Israel/Palestine conflict). At any rate, this isn't the last contribution I want to make before death (at least, not the way I had said things), so I'm removing it for that reason also. Definitely don't want that to be one of the last things I wrote.

Here is what I should have said:

I don't like Islamic legalism, misogyny, fundamentalism, or the treatment of other religions and apostates (within the religion). I have nothing against the food, the clothes, the language, or some of the values. It is a diverse religion with every nation under the sun having some form of Islam, and it isn't a monolith. In fact, I grew up in a city that had the Muslim call to prayer blasting in the city on some days, and on Sunday, the Christian churches would blast their worship music and preaching. I never had a problem with the call to prayer or anything. I was quite used to it (experiencing the call to prayer from multiple spires in a Muslim country is truly something to behold, an unforgettable experience). Some of the groups I have the most affection for are the Berbers, who treated me, a foreign woman, as a human being instead of harassing me on the street and bothering me a lot like some other groups of Tunisian men did (felt like an object when they did that). I have had good experiences with some Pakistani women and love the shalwar kameez. It's so comfortable! I also have compassion for Somali women having worked with Somali refugees in Kenya and seen how harsh their life can be. I am more uncomfortable around men in this religion than women in this religion, especially when they dress in a way that I interpret as more fundamentalist (serious about their faith, possibly more radical about it, like the fundamentalist equivalent of Christianity/Judaism). If I didn't have experiences with violence or harassment from them, I wouldn't react in fear this way.

In Tunisia, we attended a wedding where the church had to close at sundown (the police came to shut the wedding down), due to safety reasons. I was constantly being harassed in Tunisia (by men), and while I wasn't wearing a head covering, I was more conservatively dressed. The harassment was done towards all the females in our college group. Also, I took a walk with a child of a family we were staying with that were foreigners from a different country than the US, and she told me they used to go to school in Tunisia with all the local kids, but were getting so badly beaten by both the kids and the teachers that they had to be removed from the school. Also, if you were Christian at all (a group that still has privileges due to being people of the book), you were extremely isolated there and had to worry about police harassment and were constantly being watched for suspicious behavior. I will also never forget my Sudanese friend getting tears in her eyes as she told me that she still has nightmares that her family will find her and finish what they started. All that happened is she was found with a Bible, and her brothers beat her so badly she had hair missing from her head and her eye became blood. Then, they were going to send her to a conversion camp, but she escaped (in her words, miraculously). She is such a kind, sweet human being. It made me angry that religions can brainwash people into doing such horrible things to their own families, and for no good reason. These experiences and others as well, made me cautious around Islam. I know not all are bad, and I even have respect for some forms of Islam such as Sufism (not because of the folk religion, necessarily, but because it is framed as more personal than external which aligns more with what I believe religion should be, a personal journey, not one to force on a society).

Anyway, originally, my mindset was thinking of all the negatives of what I experienced with Islam when thinking of Palestinians, and thinking of Eva when I thought of the Jewish people (one of a set of Jewish twin girls that survived brutal Nazi medical experiments). But, I realized I shouldn't be speaking about that, because as I said above, I have a skewed perspective when I think of it that way. I've only had one negative experience with Jewish people, but I haven't had to deal with extremist Zionists (which I disagree with). I also recognize there are Palestinian Christians who are suffering for no reason in this conflict, I am sure. It is a conflict that has gotten too extreme in vengeance too. However, ultimately, whenever I think of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict two things come to mind.

1. This is a conflict between genetic "brothers," meaning, the Palestinians and Jewish peoples share genetic roots that trace back to the Canaanites and people who lived in that region originally.
2. This is ultimately a religious conflict, if Zionism didn't exist, Jewish people wouldn't care about claiming the land. If Islamic theology didn't have hostility towards the Jewish religion and a conflict over the shared religious values of the land, there would be nothing to fight about.

Which is why I typically don't think fondly of monotheistic religions. To me, while they brought good to the world, they also brought a lot of pointless religious wars that were specifically intensified due to the claim that only one "god" can be the real "god." They also seemed to be rather obsessed with political power. But anyway, that's my two cents, and what I should have said from the beginning.

[raklian]